OTOH, Brad’s post may have a point. As Dr. Mohler opined, it is important not to develop a “debating spirit”. We must must never become one who will drive across the state to argue for the Doctrines of Grace, but won’t walk across the street to share the Good News.

As I recall, Eph. 2:10 said we’re predestined to something, but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t doctrinal purity.

If God is giving the good then how can all men be void of it?

I didn’t say it, Scripture did: as one who serves by the strength that God supplies—in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

I didn’t say that all men were void of it, but that any good they have is God’s doing and not theirs and except that God does it, they are void of it. Which of course means that before he gives it, they are void of it. The question that you have to answer is why do men do anything good? Then there is this, God gives to some and not to others as you admit, or at least you say you know who is good and who isn’t, so, do you agree that at least some are depraved? And if others are not depraved, by what fiat? Still, the point remains, in and of themselves, men have no righteousness as Jesus said, “There is only one who is good, that is God.” And other Scripture compliments his word, “There is no one who does righteousness, no not one.” But of course you reject any Scripture that rejects your pretensions to righteousness. I didn’t expect you to read it or understand it. Repeatedly you have been given Scripture, you simply dismiss them out of hand. Perhaps you should really read the posts, and the responses before you answer.

If God is giving the good then how can all men be void of it?

Again, you don’t offer a convincing argument for the concept of complete depravity in men when you throw mud rather than a few counter points out.

By reducing yourself to name-calling rather than calmly picking points of Scripture and going over them you haven’t helped to strengthen one’s viewpoint that the concept should be believed.

And, by the way? You should be the last person to tell someone else that they are rejecting Scripture.

Ultimately, it looks as though it is what we recognize or want to recognize in Scripture which defines us.

Some see in Scripture those items which would make all of mankind depraved. Some do not.

what a final redactor says in a word then you get a clearer picture

I know you reject the Scripture Barry but just so you will know that you do: And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit…As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God’s varied grace: whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God; whoever serves, as one who serves by the strength that God supplies—in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Do you honestly think that you are capable of good outside of Christ? It is clear from Scripture that no man has anything except that which God has given him. Isn’t it true then that except that God gives the good, all men are void of it? All Scripture is God expired Barry, and if we do not understand it, it is not the Word of God. It is either absolute truth known absolutely, or it is not known at all. And if it is not known it is not the Word of God but merely words that a man believes. We cannot both be right about two opposing things. What you choose to believe is irrelevant. It is either truth or not, it is either the Word of God as understood by God, or it is not.

I know from experience that their are bad people.

So, you can do what only God can do, that is judge the intents and motives of the heart? It is you who determines who is good and who is evil? How can you say that you know the bad ones? Are you judging by outward appearance:

For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.

Making yourself God? There are those who do judge by outward appearance. Paul and Christ condemned them as evil, as men of the circumcision, condemned by the Law. They so easily accuse others of not keeping that which is impossible that they themselves can.

Are you one of the bad ones? See my comment above about the Pharisee. Are you one of the good ones, a Pharisee, Barry? Do you look down upon all those tax collectors and sinners? Apparently, you do:

I’m perfectly content to have you “buy” the Total Depravity concept.

Are you a bigot, Barry, a classist, separating people before the time? You are one of the bad ones Barry, by your own confession, as your assertions make all to evident. So depraved are you, that you do not see your own depravity.

Ultimately, it looks as though it is what we recognize or want to recognize in Scripture which defines us.

Some see in Scripture those items which would make all of mankind depraved. Some do not.

Andrew,

With your comment relative to a person trusting in their own ability to do good in order to be right with God, I think you’re overlooking a couple of valuable points. For one, Scripture repeats continually that God is looking for and expecting all of us to do good and be good. That is an inviolate criteria of his–how we conduct ourselves. Secondly, there are plenty of people in this world who do good and are good naturally and their motive is not to show or prove their goodness to me or to you. If it is their relationship with God which is the modifying feature for their goodness then that has nothing to do with us.

We can not know it.

And, therefore by our not knowing whether God has graced a particular person who shines their light of goodness out to the world then what kind of thugs would we be to point our fingers at them and say “you can’t be anything but depraved no matter what good you’ve done on earth”?

If someone does what pleases God relative to their conduct and behavior then someone who sins fify-fold more by proclaiming a particular faith while being indifferent to their conduct is missing some profound statements in Scripture.

I’m perfectly content to have you “buy” the Total Depravity concept.

But, there are many more who don’t. When you put Scripture into context and stop putting all your weight on what a final redactor says in a word then you get a clearer picture of the meaning of what is being said.

I know from experience that their are bad people. I also know their are alot of good people who do alot of good things. I don’t feel a need to push someone up against a wall and tell them that unless they believe a certain way, despite their good works, that they are unworthy in God’s eyes.

I’ll leave that to someone else.

I’m not so convinced that Isaiah and Titus were issuing a blanket indictment of all people but were, instead, speaking of the weaknesses some people. With Isaiah I believe his invectives were directed at some Jews and with Titus against some Jews, Christians and Cretans.

Compare: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed [1] thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The fact is Barry, your modern parable of “good people” that you know puts you in very unjustified company. To the contrary God makes us all the same in Adam: There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? 3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? 5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

Jesus follows this up with a parable about a fig that does not bear fruit, and I would lay this fruit with John the baptist: Bear fruits in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.

It was the Pharisees who thought that they could do good works. It was John’s contention that that showed that they were unrepentant and undeserving of the kingdom of God because they thought that they could earn it.

Yet notwithstanding the persons of believers being accepted through Christ, their good works also are accepted in him; not as though they were in this life wholly unblameable and unreprovable in God’s sight, but that he, looking upon them in his Son, is pleased to accept and reward that which is sincere, although accompanied with many weaknesses and imperfections.

We live this by faith, we know the commands and that we are expected to obey, but no man knows the extent to which he is obedient and God demands perfection. It is in the perfect work of Christ, what he did, and not in us, that our works are accepted. The sincerity spoken of then is the sincerity of faith, and not of the action or intent. We should never think that any of our works merit any favor, for that would overthrough the perfect work of Christ.

I do believe that it is necessary for you to undergo a paradigm shift in your reading of Scripture. You say, “There are many people who have few redeeming characteristics,” but I believe you will be hard-pressed to find the action of “redeeming” ascribed to anyone in Scripture save God alone. In other words, no aspect of one’s character nor action that one takes can provide redemption from a single sin. The Bible does not point us to look inside ourselves for redemption, but ever to look for redemption extrinsically- to look to Jesus as our only Redeemer and to look to His work of redemption on the Cross- not trusting in our own works at all.

In regards to our own works- our attempts at “following the correct path of being and doing good”- these are condemned by Scripture as woefully inadequate and even insulting to God in light of the perfect work accomplished by Christ. It is not only our wicked acts that are condemned, but “our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment” (notice that the prophet Isaiah includes even himself in this indictment). In Galatians, the Apostle does not only condemn law-breaking, but declares the idea of law-keeping, when viewed as a part of that which justifies us before God, as anathema.

Jesus teaches that it is only as one realizes his helpless, sinful state and calls out to God for mercy- not trusting in works at all, but trusting in God’s grace alone- that one is declared right in God’s sight (see Luke 18:9-14).

And this is my concern for you, Barry. If you are trusting in any way in your ability to do good in order to make you right before God, then I fear that you will fall short of His holy standard and find yourself under His condemnation. If the Spirit through the Word brings you to humiliation and you cry out to God for mercy, trusting in Christ alone for salvation, then you, like that tax collector, will be justified in that moment- not fearful that you may someday stray from the correct path, not wondering whether or not your works will be good enough, unselfish enough to be accepted by God.

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

Still denying the other half of Scripture, eh Barry?

If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

That evil does good is no contradiciton. It is a contradiction that evil can do anything holy and acceptable to God.

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

You are of your father the devil, Barry. This is where salvation begins, with the knowledge of the Holy, his righteousness and your absolute unrighteousness.

What is your motivation? Who do you seek to please, and can you?

Andrew already said, that the good works that we do are nothing more than filthy garments. There is none who does good, no not one. It remains then for you to prove that you can. First, I would like you to tell us by what measure it is good? Where does the balances of the good exist? Do you have them here on earth? Who judges them as good, or as evil, you? Can you ascend into heaven to bring Christ down, that is by your good works, do you sacrifice Christ? When Scripture speaks of dependence upon good works, even the dependence on the good works of good works, it says it as if to crucify Christ again and to put him to an open shame, because it is rejecting the full satisfaction and perfection of his blood. IOW, to claim that we can do anything meritorious, that is good, is to steal Christ’s glory.

We do not deny the commandment, Barry, just your ability to obey. Tell me, are you perfect? Well then, you have never done a good work because the Commandment is be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect, or be Holy as God is Holy. Done either Barry? Didn’t think so. Then the fact remains, as Paul said, there is nothing good in you. What God requires of you Barry is perfection, something which you are perfectly imcabable of producing.